The Chronicles of Curious Characters

Welcome to another episode of the Chronicles of Curious Characters.

This episode is quite special for at least two reasons and in no particular order probably

the least important reason will be the first because this is the tenth episode of the podcast

which for me personally is quite important.

It is like a milestone. podcasts when they start they don't make I think past fifth or sixth episode for whatever

reasons they can be many reasons for this episode we made it to the tenth hopefully

there will be many more so that's the first reason and the second reason is that we have

a very special guest on the episode before I introduce him I will just tell a few words

why he's so special and explain the reason, we have a native Luxembourger joining us for

a conversation today.

For the listeners who are outside of Luxembourg and for whom this might sound surprising,

is that if you live and work in Luxembourg, it's actually a rare occasion where you meet

a native Luxembourger.

We will dive into that a bit deeper into our conversation, I guess.

Why is the reason? Maybe we'll talk about some statistics about Luxembourg, which I actually did a bit of

research, just a bit.

And you should see my guest's expression, he was really surprised.

This is actually the first time for the episode that I did research for.

But without further ado let me introduce Chris. Welcome to the show Chris.

Thank you very much. I feel very honored that you consider me special.

So just to briefly introduce me my name is Chris. I'm 31 years old and I'm currently residing in

Luxembourg and as already have been mentioned I am a native Luxembourger. I grew up here for

for most of the time and did study abroad,

but now I find myself working here and living here.

And I thought this podcast was a great opportunity to have an exchange or a discourse,

and perhaps give my own personal experiences as a person who was a native Luxembourgish person.

And also I lived briefly in the city and I came across a very diverse set of people

from all kind of nationalities and I usually found myself always being the Luxembourgish person.

There are exceptions of course but I was just very astonished that the phrase, oh, you're

the first Luxembourger that I've ever met, that was something that I've heard quite a

lot and so I want to discuss this a bit further perhaps in this podcast and give some information

about myself and my experiences as a whole.

Thank you for the introduction. I'm really excited to have it with you.

So maybe let's start, if you could tell us which part of the country and which city you

grew up and maybe a bit more about how your childhood looked like.

Of course. Well, I grew up initially in Dulange in the south. My family is from Dulange,

but I've only passed a very few years there, so I have no real recognition as I was

still a newborn back there. And then I quickly moved with my parents to Reistopf, which is

not really a city, a small town next to Die Kirche on the German border. And that is where

where I probably spent most of my early childhood.

I went to school there as well, primary school or elementary school, and afterwards I went

to the Lycee in Eshtenach, which is not so far away.

I always took the bus there and afterwards I lived in Eshtenach as well because my parents

got a divorce, so Eshtenach was not a complete changer for me.

I actually quite enjoyed being even closer to the school and my friends.

And so all these things that I've just mentioned means that I was growing up in a very sort

of rural town and it was very Luxembourgish focused.

Most of my friends and other families were Luxembourgish people so it wasn't all too

diverse and even the school, the high school in Eschternach is a very Luxembourgish based.

Luxembourgish is really the common language that you hear all the time, which is very

different from other schools when you go into the city. If you're going to Lycée des Garçons or the Lycée Vauban, where other languages are

have far more.

Yeah relevant in that regard. So my upbringing was I would consider it very modest.

Just a normal boy growing up, having friends, going to school, biking around and very basic

things that children do in that regard. Have you traveled abroad between now and you know

any time in the past have you lived abroad? I consider myself lucky to have been traveling

quite a bit personally and I lived abroad for a brief period of time when I did my studies in

Austria in Innsbruck where I started studying psychology so I lived there for about four.

To five years I think I cannot remember correctly but I had extensive experiences in Austria which,

Which is not too exotic in a way but still it is quite a change in your daily life when

suddenly you're living in a completely different country with a different language, in this

case German, and trying to grow up and find yourself a new place, a place to fit into

in a new environment.

For how long now you've been back to Luxembourg? Oh, I would say I'm back from 2015 on.

Okay, so already like eight years now, we have 2023, if I remember well, after the COVID

like all the years are mixed, especially the years after and during the COVID, at least for me.

Yes, it is. And the time flies way too fast and I'm not sure if it's because of COVID or when you

get older and older, time flies faster.

You've been back to Luxembourg for eight years now and you lived abroad.

You obviously speak German, Luxembourgish and English.

Any other languages that you've been exposed to and that you speak?

So in this case, I like to mention I'm feeling really grateful as a Luxembourgish person growing up here.

We do learn English, French, German, Luxembourgish, of course, and depending on what school you

go to, you can even learn Spanish as well or other languages.

And now I am very happy that I speak German, French, English, Luxembourgish, but I've

also done a course in Italian.

So I have a very basic fundamental understanding of Italian, mostly because I was an Italian

group that came to Luxembourg to work here and I got involved with them where I used

to live in Wasserbillig.

And there I kind of started learning a bit of Italian, speaking it.

And then I did a course to kind of improve my knowledge on the language quite a bit.

So I am really, really grateful for this, to be able to speak so many languages.

And I think that's one of the biggest advantages that we have here in this country, that it's

easy to be exposed to other languages or cultures in that sense, and to take just some elements

of the language or tradition and to learn about them.

Indeed, I'm always surprised in a very positive way, for example, when I take a bus and a

group of young kids or teenagers hop on the bus and they can talk in so many different

languages and they communicate also between each other and they switch so fluently between,

for example, French, Luxembourgish and English, which for me, of course, I was raised most

of my childhood I was raised in Poland, so only with one language.

And for me this is extremely hard to switch between the languages.

Of course after the years, you know, I've been using English on a daily basis at home, we use Polish.

So in that respect it's much easier for me, but it takes time to get used to the different languages.

Languages. Chris, you currently, if I know, you work in Luxembourg, right? Would you like

to share some more about where you work or what you do on a daily basis?

Yes, of course. As for many Luxembourgish people, I do work for the government, which

is a sort of a cliche at this point, but I do work for the government in the financial

sector. Since I've been working at my particular post for seven years now I'm

quite happy and I'm also glad that at my work I am exposed to a lot of different

nationalities so it's always very interesting and diverse be it just

exchanging with other colleagues or the work itself. As we know Luxembourg is a

a pretty big financial center, especially in regards to banks and investment funds and

other services.

So it's kind of the point where everybody gets together. And at the beginning you said the word, you used the word cliché.

Why is that?

Well, it goes back to also the phrase of, oh, you're the first Luxembourgish person that I've met.

And in this regard, everybody that I've met says that all the Luxembourgish citizens or

native Luxembourgish people, they work for the government and...

I would say that it's fairly true as I personally know a lot of Luxembourgish,

native Luxembourgish people who work for the government. One would have to see in the statistics

but I'd say that it's still a pretty accurate cliche for most parts because there's usually

some truth to it even if there are exceptions of course. Yeah actually I do have statistics

from the statistical or statistics office of Luxembourg.

And I believe the data comes from the census from the 2021. So already a couple of years ago, obviously it's impossible to get the most recent data

because it takes a bit of time for the census, sorry, for the statistical office to compile

the data and publish them.

But I think the data from 2021 can be quite representative. So for example, so before we continue, maybe we can paint a picture for our listeners from

outside of Luxembourg, what Luxembourg is and why it is so diverse.

So I will attempt to do that, but you as a native Luxembourger, please stop me if I say something stupid.

So Luxembourg is a small country with the same name of the capital, Luxembourg City,

bordering to Germany, France, and Belgium.

And it's quite unique, like Chris already mentioned, it's a quite unique country because

it's very international. And let's say it's international from two perspectives.

One is that, and this is according to the statistics that I have in front of me, that.

Over 47% of people living in Luxembourg are foreigners and almost 53% are actually the

residents of Luxembourg are actually the Luxembourgers.

So it's almost a 50-50 numbering between foreigners and the Luxembourgers.

But here what's interesting is that the fact that those 50% are of Luxembourgish citizenship

doesn't really mean that they were born in Luxembourg, because there are quite a few

people who have obtained Luxembourgish citizenship either through taking the language exam or through family.

And actually I'm looking at my notes here that of those residents only 50% of Luxembourgers are by birth.

So the other 50% of the residents or Luxembourgish citizens are not by birth.

So this is already also very interesting perspective that paints the idea of what Luxembourg is.

So these are the residents, right? People living in Luxembourg, but in addition to the residents, we also have what we call

the cross-border workers, which according to the statistics, there are around 200,000

people who are cross-borders.

So that means for our international listeners, that means that these are people that live,

either in Germany, France, or Belgium, and they commute on a daily basis to work to Luxembourg,

and in the evening back to their country.

Some people make fun that there are, well, let's put it in a polite way, they're very

patient people because they are stuck in this huge traffic jams every morning and every

evening, because when you see on, for example, Google Maps, you look at the traffic information

in the morning, you see that all the highways from Belgium, Germany and France are in red,

in the morning and in the evening.

So these are people that are also very important for Luxembourgish economy, because they contribute

to around 46% of the country's workforce.

I think that paints a quite interesting picture. I don't know if there's anything from your

perspective, Chris, that you would like to add. I think the statistics and numbers that you've

mentioned are very pertinent to this discussion. And with the very first point that you've made,

that there are about, I think, what was it, 40% of foreigners that were here around,

and all the other Luxembourgish citizens,

there is a point to make that it is always important to, if we have this very unique situation

that we do have a lot of non-Luxembourgish people in this country, to still integrate them in a way

that they can contribute in a meaningful way,

not just coming here to work and just leave again.

And also it is important, even if this is a bit political, in a sense, to have these people also leave these people a say in matters here.

And that's also why our legislation on obtaining the Luxembourgish nationality is very flexible,

and it is perhaps one would say sometimes very easy to get the Luxembourgish nationality.

I cannot really attest to that.

There are a lot of ways to be integrated into the country as a Luxembourgish citizen, but

And it is important to really take this into consideration that what Luxembourg wants to

avoid is to have a minority of Luxembourgish people who decide on politics due to voting

and that all the other workforce that still comes here and perhaps also lives here that

they are not part of this community because we can find ourself in a situation where really

a minority of Luxembourgish people can decide on political matters and an entire group of

people is simply left out. So we do really want to avoid to have a sort of two group system in this country. So it is important that a lot of people that

live here also get integrated, which I think is personally an absolute right

that they should have if they work here, they live here, they want to build up a

life here. I think that's a very right that everybody should have at this point.

Now, I was just going to ask you about, because you mentioned voting, and indeed soon in a

month, next month, we are going to have the local elections to the local municipalities.

And I'm not sure about the history, but I think this is the first time when anyone living

longer than one year in Luxembourg can actually vote in the municipal elections.

For that, I might be wrong. I'm not sure if that's the case.

I'm personally going to, with my wife, we are going to vote for the first time in Luxembourg

because we personally, we've been here for, let me do a quick count, seven years now.

I think, at least in my opinion, this is the first time I feel like at home. And I lived in a few

other countries in the past in my life. And I really enjoy living in Luxembourg, enjoy the

nature, I enjoy the free transport or transportation, public transportation and many other benefits.

These days also the weather because today we have a very nice weather, which this year

has been really, really unusual, but we're not going to talk about the weather in this

episode. So if I understood well, from your perspective, you think that giving the right

to vote for foreigners who live here is something natural.

Do you mind that people who are not citizens of your country will be making certain decisions

that will potentially impact country or municipalities.

I think it's a very important but also difficult question to answer.

And from my personal view on it is that a person who is working here in Luxembourg established

a life, contributed in a lot of ways, be it at work or socially and when they feel at

home they deserve to contribute in order to shape up their environment and the country

as well and the way that they see fit. Now, of course, one has to put down a certain standard.

What does it mean to be living in this country? What is the point where somebody is contributing

enough in order to make also political decisions? So that's always a very difficult question

to answer. And personally, I think I am not competent enough to really give out a sort

of opinion or a solution to this but I think it is important and first step to really make

people that live here feel included as well as I think we haven't mentioned it yet sometimes

at least from my personal experience is that Luxembourgish people do tend to be by themselves

a bit more and sometimes especially if you live in Luxembourg City one can notice that

there's a big difference between natives living among themselves and all the expats working.

Here. And I think this should not be the case. Ideally, my utopic vision for this country

is that everybody should work and come together at the same place, exchange, and really benefit

from this sort of cultural exchange that we all have. And I think Luxembourg as a country,

it is so small, is in a very unique position. And there's opportunity to really make this

something more interesting and really to integrate sort of aspects and other foreigners into

this environment and to shape something new. And also perhaps the idea of Europe, which

is really important for Luxembourg, politically speaking, is that we want to be a European

country. And I think I really want to personally see that we go down that step even more, include

more foreigners into our decisions, because they do represent a large part of this country

as well. If one would deny that, I think that would be really wrong.

Yeah, I think in one what in your answer, you said that Luxembourgish people are sometimes

on their own. What do you mean by that? Do they feel secluded in their own country?

Yeah, that is a very important question and I asked that myself a lot of times.

Personally I've been sometimes even alienated myself as a native Luxembourgish person when I lived in the city.

There were days that passed by where I didn't speak at one time Luxembourgish.

And one would think that in the capital city of their own country Luxembourgish would be more relevant.

And I think even when we look now at the government, the government enforces a lot of ways to keep

the Luxembourgish language more official to offer courses.

I personally talk a lot about languages because I personally like them a lot, but also they

are an important key factor to keep sort of a Luxembourgish identity alive.

And the identity of Luxembourg is usually a topic in and of itself that is very blurry.

Some regards the Luxembourg identity as an artificial country full of banks. And I think

that's very reductive as a take. I think Luxembourg as an entity has a lot to offer. Personally,

I find the country very beautiful, beautiful nature, lots of tradition as well. Perhaps,

we do not have the old cuisine with other countries, but I think Luxembourg has a lot going for it.

I agree in terms of, you know, the diversity of different interests, personal interests

that you can explore.

Before or actually when I was coming to Luxembourg back in 2016, I heard from people saying,

oh, Luxembourg is a boring country and there is nothing to do.

And okay, I came here and then I started discovering there is an opera, plenty of museums, beautiful

nature even if you don't feel like staying in Luxembourg, you just drive 40 minutes to

Germany to France to Belgium, there are plenty of things to do around here.

There are sports centers that you can go and subscribe and play badminton with groups.

If you go, for example, on an application called or a website, I think it's called

meetup.com, there are plenty of people organizing some type of meetups, hiking, playing badminton,

tennis, volleyball outside.

So there is I think a vibrant community that you know you can engage with and find a hobby for yourself.

You mentioned languages and even though that you speak you know four languages.

In terms of accounting so italian well italian that came later but german luxembourgish french

and english you said you still felt secluded when you were in the city center and there were days

that you didn't speak your your mother tongue i think it's interesting because you know you're

fluent in so many languages and still, when you could not speak your mother tongue, Klaxonburgish,

you still felt something, you were sad.

And I think that's very interesting, despite that you speak fluently other languages as

well. Do you know why you had that feeling?

That's a very interesting observation. And first I would like to mention that I do like speaking in other languages.

So I think perhaps it's a fault of mine always switching to the language of the other person

speaking and I think that is perhaps applicable to a large percentage of native Luxembourgish

people here in this country.

I'm used to it also at work just in order to facilitate communication we're just switching

to language that is the most, that's the easiest for every party involved now and that's also

So I am always delighted when I can speak in English or in Italian.

So perhaps I don't want to impose my Luxembourgish language on everybody even because communication

can sometimes be difficult then.

But the thing, the element really that made me perhaps sometimes sad, and it depends on

the days of course, but it's sometimes you live in this country and I don't speak too

often Luxembourgish and suddenly you're wondering why is that the case, why even though this

is the country, it's an official language of the country, why can I not speak with more

people in Luxembourgish when I go in other countries?

It's sort of expected that in France you speak French in most parts, so I think there's sometimes

a sort of alienation that is going on for me personally, which sometimes is hurtful

in a way, but it also depends on what you make of it.

And it depends also on what kind of environment or acquaintances you have.

For instance, as I mentioned previously, I was involved with a group of Italians,

which I consider my friends, and they were very, very in love with the idea of Luxembourg,

so to say, and they enjoyed learning Luxembourgish and then I taught them a bit and

we had a lot of fun together. And those are really the moments where I really like this idea.

Of the different languages, speaking them, exchanging, that's really where I feel

the communication is authentic to some really authentic. Now other days perhaps

it's just because of me but I feel frustrated that I cannot express myself in my language because obviously while I am perhaps fluent in other languages I

am not able to express myself in the same to the same degree that I am in my

mother tongue and usually during a certain I would say personal businesses

where I have to make a statement or talk about myself or even when you're taking

going for instance to psychotherapy or to a doctor and you have an issue and

sometimes you're forced to talk in a different language and perhaps you're

missing some parts that are important or you cannot express yourself in the way

that you want to and that causes really some frustration at some points but I

think this is now a very specific case but that's the first one that pops to my

mind. And do you sometimes when you for example speak I don't know German French or

Luxembourgish, do you sometimes drop...

A word from a different language because it's easier or because you think the other person might understand?

That's also a very interesting question.

I admit that I do mix up a lot of words from different languages.

I usually just say the words that come easier to my mind and if I know the other person will understand what I'm saying, then I'll just use them.

But I think this can create some pretty quirky ways of speaking to a person.

And as you mentioned earlier, even in a bus, there have been plenty of situations where

I was in public transport or at work where three people in a circle talk to each other

about their daily life in three different languages and they switch on the fly or sometimes

they say something in French because it's easier.

Sometimes they say it in German or English. And I think this is so unique and really interesting.

And there, coming back to the frustration, I hope that we can see even more Luxembourgish

incorporated in such an environment.

Because that's, for example, we, it's a story from my home between my wife and I, my wife is also Polish.

None of us works in French and speaks French fluently. We both work in English.

But sometimes I noticed that obviously we sometimes in our conversation, when we talk

in Polish we use English word but from time to time we also use the French word because

for some reason it's easier.

That's interesting even you know we don't speak French on a daily basis and now actually

we are learning Luxembourgish, we've been learning Luxembourgish for some time, I should

not mention for how long because that's a bit embarrassing and we started learning the

language for two reasons. One reason, and this is I will not hide it, is to try and

pass the national language exam because we want to apply for citizenship.

The second reason was because we thought it would be so nice when you go out do some shopping or you go to the city center to the market to the market to buy stuff in the native language.

Can you mention that sometimes you switch to a language that's easier to communicate with the person for example if the person doesn't speak.

Luxembourgish fluently, then you would switch to English, French or German.

In my case, believe it or not, I was practicing in my head for a few hours,

to tell you when you rang on the intercom downstairs, to tell you in Luxembourgish

that we are on the third floor and I chickened out and I said it in English.

I think that maybe if Luxembourgish speakers, especially native speakers,

would be a bit more forthcoming with using the native language.

I think it would also help foreigners such as myself to not be afraid to use that language.

I have and I know a few people who have passed the national exam language, they got the nationality.

But they don't educate themselves further, they don't even use the language, they keep

forgetting what they learned.

So I think at the end many people will just forget the language, they will continue using

English, French, German, and I think there is a risk that because of that the Luxembourgish

language will not establish itself as I guess the government hopes to have.

Like we said before, only 50% of Luxembourgish residents are by birth and there is this huge

of foreigners who are not native Luxembourgers.

So do you think maybe there is a risk of the language maybe not being forgotten but not

being such established as other languages, French and German, also potentially these

languages influence Luxembourg and are used in Luxembourg because there is such a workforce

traveling across the border from France and Germany working here.

Well, I think you made many good points. And the first point that really stuck in my mind is that,

Luxembourgish people should be more forthcoming with speaking Luxembourgish with others.

And I think that is fairly true. And as I said previously, personally, I am also guilty of not

perhaps speaking more Luxembourgish with non-Luxembourgish speakers. And even in our

brief conversations and discussions that we had or exchanging the written ones, you made

a great attempt to write in Luxembourgish and I never replied really a lot in Luxembourgish.

And then it's not even to be mean, it's just I'm so I'm just switching my mind completely

to a different language at times when I'm writing.

But I think there's a really good point that you're making overall is that and I see this

a lot in my work environment. I work with very international colleagues and most languages

that we speak are either French, German or all the usual ones that we've mentioned earlier.

And often a person or myself personally, I do not take enough time or have the patience

sometimes to really speak with somebody else in Luxembourgish. And I think that's really

an issue. Of course, I cannot say if this is applicable to everybody, but I think that's

a really important point that you made. And I think there should be more of a campaign,

perhaps even by the government to perhaps encourage more exchanges with others in Luxembourgish.

But I must admit that it really depends on the environment when you said earlier that,

perhaps the Luxembourgish language is not as enforced as much.

I like to believe that in the recent years, I noticed that it's enforced far more in the terms.

Of there are more courses available. A lot of even festivals or events, they have Luxembourgish

names. I think there's really an effort put into keeping sort of a tradition with the language and

enforcing it in cultural events or in different applications or at work, or with all the slogans

that we have during campaigns or political campaigns as well.

But on the other hand, I know I'm switching the coin right now.

But from a foreigner's perspective, now I'm going to share what I think about that, is

for example, when I receive sometimes unofficial communication from the government, some kind

of announcement, quite often it is in four languages, the Luxembourgish, French, German,

sorry, five languages, Luxembourgish, French, German, Portuguese, and English.

And because there is this communication in the language that I'm familiar in English,

I also feel included. I feel more like being at home and I want to also, for example, contribute

attribute to my, with my life here by, for example, going and vote in municipal elections.

So I think there are two coins of that. Like we discussed, there is this one that really

there was a need to somehow maybe not enforce because enforces is a wrong word, maybe what,

the word is I'm looking for, um, and courage and thank you, encourage the people to learn

Learn the language, learn the culture, cultivate it in one way or the other, but also mix it

with your own culture because it's, you know, you need to always, you have this blend.

But on the other hand, also there is a need to make the people feel included.

And I think it's a very thin line and very difficult to achieve.

I'm not an expert, obviously, and I cannot express or to give advice how it should be done.

I think from my perspective as a foreigner Luxembourg is doing pretty good in that case,

but yeah I miss this, you know, especially I want to learn the language and having going

for a class like twice a week.

That's not enough. My wife, for example, she's doing much better than I do, because she started reading the RTL news in Luxembourgish already, and she understands because of that much, much more.

I'm a bit more lazy, so I go on the English version, today.rtl.lu, but it's, you know, so I guess it's also personal, right?

It's not, we cannot say, oh, it's the government's fault.

It's also maybe my fault, our fault, that we still kind of stuck with the language that

we are more comfortable with and we don't try to go a bit further outside our comfort zone.

I think in that regard, you made another good observation that it depends on the person

and itself who is in the situation they're living here and perhaps it's still at the

end you make the best out of your situation and the way that you want to interact with your environment.

In the end my point is that it really depends on the person itself to make the best out

of it and unfortunately I have acquaintances of mine which whom I've really discussed this

topic they are in a situation where they have a for instance a family that's only French

speaking and they speak French all the time at home. When they go out in the city they

usually use French because it's very common at work they use French and even though they

live in Luxembourg they don't get the opportunity perhaps so much to speak Luxembourgish in

their environment. And it is really tough to do the first step in order to go out of

yourself and speak with others in Luxembourgish and even at my work where Luxembourgish is

still used quite a lot. I have a lot of colleagues, they lament the fact that they never get the.

Opportunity, especially the ones commuting from the borders from other countries, they

never have that many opportunities to exchange themselves in Luxembourgish with others.

So that's really a point that should be addressed, but it's really dependent on the person itself.

You know, I completely understand this people's position and, you know, I can imagine their

feelings. Do you think there will be a rise of far-right nationalism because of that?

I know it's a difficult question, but this just came to my mind because sometimes, you

know, when people feel they cannot, they feel that they don't feel like at home in their

own country, sometimes it creates this negative spring of nationalism.

And I just wonder if that could be the case for Luxembourg, you know, if maybe you observed

something, maybe you heard something.

That is definitely true. I think we all talk now about the idea of different nationalities

working, living together, coexisting. Unfortunately, this is a very strong ideology that I like,

but it's not always necessarily applicable in an environment. And hence, I unfortunately

do know a lot of acquaintances of mine who do have very negative sentiments about all

the different nationalities being so relevant, especially in the city.

They are upset that they cannot go out and speak Luxembourgish or they feel they need

to change who they are or they feel a loss of identity in the country or with perhaps.

The place that they used to live.

As we know Luxembourg did experience a lot of growth recently and even small towns who,

are very Luxembourgish they get a big influx of various new people that live there including

foreigners and sometimes there's a change to it and of course as this is an issue in

a lot of countries not only in Luxembourg I think there is always a sense of anxiety

when there are big changes or new influences changing the way that you used to live.

Now personally I do like to believe that I am open-minded and I see this as an opportunity

but I do unfortunately know some individuals who are very upset even at their workplace

they feel they disconnect completely with this idea of.

Of coexisting, working together as different nationalities, this idea of Europe does not

necessarily exist for them. And unfortunately, I think this is also common when we look at

politics throughout Europe in the recent years, there has been a rise in this kind of sentiment.

And I think Luxembourg is also, does have such, has a significant amount of people who think

in the same way. And previously, a point that I wanted to add is also that we talk now,

me personally, I was living in the city and I think Luxembourg City is a very diverse and

cultural and unique place because usually when you visit the countryside or even as I mentioned,

growing up in Reistorf or when you go into north into Weisswampusch or Volz or all these other

towns they are still very very Luxembourgish and I feel the Luxembourgish sort of nationality and

sentiment is far more relevant there but often when we have these discussions it's always coming

from a point of the capital which is very unique and diverse in a lot of ways but one only has to

go up with a car up north or different parts of the countries and they will see and notice that

Luxembourg is still very much language that is used a lot.

I will maybe start with the question but before I will give you the opportunity to answer I will

explain you my point of view so maybe it will be a bit easier for you to understand what I

mean with this question.

The question is where in this context of international people, international environment.

And Luxembourg, the question is where would you draw the line? So where you said,

no, stop, that's enough. Now, let me explain what I mean. I as a foreigner, like I mentioned before,

I feel Luxembourg to be my home already. I as a foreigner, an international person, obviously,

Obviously I like this international aspect, obviously I don't mind of having a mixture

of Luxembourgish nationals and people from around Europe and the world, but I notice

a rise in crime in Luxembourg and I don't know and I cannot say what is the reason for,

it.

From the news that we see sometimes, my assumption is most of the crimes that happen are not

not done by the Luxembourgish people, are done by foreigners.

This might be biased, just taking this as my personal opinion.

And this is where I draw the line, like if you come to a country, is it my country or

someone else's country, you have to be respectful of the way that people live there, about police,

judicial system, whatnot.

And for me, this is the line like, okay, if you start to make other people uncomfortable,

if you attack them, if you rob them, this is it.

This is not a place for you. This is where I draw the line also, I mean, you could draw a line many places like, okay,

if you, for example, abuse the social system, I also don't feel right with that.

Is there a line that you draw?

You're definitely right, I think individuals that come to Luxembourg should not come with

the intention of committing crime, as that is definitely a line that has to be drawn.

Now, with the rise of criminality that you've mentioned earlier, I'm not necessarily myself

an expert, but I can see myself, I have several theories about it, but one could simply say that.

That it is natural for a country such as Luxembourg who has grown steadily and has increased its

population immensely over the last years that of course problems do become more relevant

that perhaps were previously less significant and with big growth there has to be also an

infrastructure as well to support that growth be it supporting the populace with different

services but also in terms of penalties for crime. I think perhaps Luxembourg needs to adjust the

system for the growth as well. One could also argue that perhaps we're being more aware of this

because medias have become more relevant and everybody likes to read news and especially

negative news do are read far more often because they incite far more of a reaction from the

the populace so it's easier to point the finger at something and just to easily make a conclusion

that oh crime has become so much worse over the years but perhaps they were there all

the time and we didn't know it.

But it is I think that would also not be the truth as with many cases the situation is

never black or white it's always different shades of grey and there are probably multiple

elements that cause this sort of increase of crime that you've mentioned where you draw the line.

So personally for me drawing the line is really I think everybody should come to this country

with good intentions, get themselves involved locally, work here, raise a family, identify

themselves with the place that they're living and everybody, every individual who comes

here with an ulterior motive that is negative or with crime in mind should.

Not be a part of this community, which is, I think, natural to think.

Obviously, perhaps my explanation is not really that amazing,

but I think that's really the first point where a line has been...

Needs to be drawn in that regard. I think you made a very good point about the news outlets.

And indeed, it might be the case that the crime has been there for years,

but it was not brought to everyone's attention by the news.

Now indeed, and I agree, news outlets are seeking this negative information because

this is what people want to click on, this is how they make money, this is what people

want to, let's say, read.

But we quite often forget about the good news that happen on a daily basis.

So you mentioned that you are in contact or you know a lot of international people, you

work with them on a daily basis.

Is there any particular aspect that you, because you mentioned before that you enjoy, you know,

this international environment of Luxembourg, what particular aspects when you interact

with other people from other countries, do you really enjoy and like and what makes you

you will feel so special and...

What makes you feel special about it in Luxembourg? In that regard, what I do enjoy mostly is when I meet a new person, be it in the city when I go out in the evening or even I used to go a lot to the library.

I sometimes approach other people in a normal discussion and then we exchange.

Things that I particularly like is when somebody else can tell me about their home country

where they're from, tell me a bit about I say culture which is pretty vague term but

perhaps tell me about the food that they like or and I think there's an exchange there that

I'm just very curious person and I want to know more about others where they come from,

What's the background? How did they end up here?

What compels them to stay here or work here? And just not simply because the salary is good and there are good social services here,

but I want to know more the personal experience that they've had.

And I found myself often that I, when going out evenings that I came into touch with all

sorts of different types of people that I've met, simply work in the financial sectors.

Other were musicians or other came with their family.

It's very diverse and what I like mostly is hear what their experience is and then usually

as we've talked extensively now is the language sort of barrier that is usually there is not

as big of a factor because in Luxembourg we personally we do have the ability to switch

to different language so there's always a way to communicate and really what makes me

feel so special, makes me feel so special as a Luxembourgish person, is just to be able

to switch to a different language and immediately get to know a person perhaps.

And I think.

Usually what I say is that foreigners or when you exchange with somebody from a different country.

The things that everybody likes is food, music or when you speak in their language. So there's an

immediate sort of connection. It doesn't happen all the time. I'm speaking here from, I'm just

personally thinking of the positive experiences. But over the years, simple acquaintances that

I've met have become friends. We've meet each other up a lot of times just for different hobbies

And yeah, and that's something I find so fascinating.

As we said earlier, I've mentioned that perhaps Luxembourgish people tend to be in their own bubble.

Of course, this is not always true. But from my personal experience, when I grew up, I had sometimes difficulties identifying

myself with other Luxembourgish people.

I was always drawn to having other languages or people that are just not from here to bring

me a new perspective of way of life or even I would say that I've learned quite a bit

about just general knowledge about the world or different countries because people are

passionate of course about their home and they tell you these things and I'm glad that

I can just soak it all up and think that it allows me to be more open-minded and give

me different perspectives on different things, topics and even I think in Luxembourg we're

very privileged in a lot of ways. We have good social systems that support families and sometimes

it's quite stunning to hear what sort of journeys some people had just coming to Luxembourg or

the sort of journey they passed that was arduous and hard and I just want to know more about it and

and perhaps put myself in the same shoes and think...

Am I really able, would I be able to do that as well? So that's really the thing that draws me so

much to it. You mentioned that music is a common denominator that you found many people are

interested in and they shared with you when you met them. Let me ask you probably the most

difficult question during our conversation. Have you watched the Eurovision finals last night?

Yes. Wow, I did not expect you saying yes. Yes, I did. I think the Eurovision Song Contest is quite an interesting institution. I really enjoy it.

You took me by surprise, you took me by surprise and I'm so glad I asked this question. Sorry, please continue.

No, I do watch it, so I'm not sure if you have any specific questions about that in that regard.

Well, right now I have so many questions, I'm not sure if we have time, but no, I'm super happy with that answer. Thank you.

When did you start watching Eurovision and what was the main reason?

Well, I was always a bit oblivious to it, but over the years I realized that it is quite a big deal for many countries.

And I think what I enjoy about it is just a sheer spectacle.

And I like to say that it's a huge fever dream of various colors, music, showmanship, entertainment and.

It is quite, it's so peculiar to me and I think it's very interesting to just discuss it

with others as well considering that it is a competition and a lot of European or non-European

countries are participating in it and everybody wants to compare or see what each nation has to

offer or brings and of course we all know that the contest itself has quite a lot of quirky characters

and rather weird showmanship at times, but I think there is a sort of morbid curiosity

watching it and I think it's a show that is quite impressive even how it's done, managed.

I'm not sure how such an endeavor is being done by so many people involved and the showmanship on

on screen or when you're live there on show is quite impressive. For me, I cannot think

the logistics behind everything it's just sometimes it feels absurd in that regard

but I enjoy it for that especially. I find it also very culturally rich you listen to the music or

you see the performance and you see that oh yeah it makes sense it's from Finland it has this weird

music with weird performance or you see someone from France you know really like last night we

we had a really nice performance, like it started with a,

I think more of a orchestral singing and then it switched to the pop like music

and that was a nice twist.

So you quite often watch or see the performance and you can really relate to the persons

or the countries that the person represents, their history and their culture.

Are you surprised with Sweden winning last night? Personally, I wished I think Sweden already won and that particularly artists already won as well.

Yes, in 2012, I found it this morning. Oh, okay. I'm not really good with the numbers when it goes in regards to certain dates as I'm

not an expert. I watch the show, but I don't keep track of everything. But I wished perhaps another

artists would have won. I think the other Finland was really strong as well.

Cha-cha-cha?

Yes, it's probably when I said earlier that the show is sometimes utterly weird and a fever dream,

I was thinking of Finland. Personally, for me, I really like Belgium. That's the sort of

country that I wish would have been higher in their ranking. I really like Belgium personally.

I thought that was pretty good, but overall many different artists and fairly unique as always.

And I like how usually, as you mentioned, the traditional sort of music is being strung together with more pop aesthetic.

And I think it creates pretty unique blends, which are sometimes great, sometimes not so much.

But I think that one song from last year, where you crane one, that was really good.

And I think it's a banger.

And I really enjoyed last night because I also watched it. And I really enjoyed the way that the UK or England organized.

It was not too long, in a sense, there were not too many breaks between the performances.

It was, let's say, straight to the point, the way I like it.

It. And it was, I think it was really well organized and we learned.

Officially yesterday during the Eurovision and I heard I think already that a day before.

Mm-hmm, it was mentioned before.

Yes, that Luxembourg decided to run again in Eurovision starting next year. I think

Luxembourg stopped running in or let's say participating in Eurovision 92 or 93.

92 or 93 and it is quite peculiar because before that Luxembourg actually won quite

a few times. I think five times. Yes, but we haven't participated as a country for such a long

time and honestly I'm very excited to see what will happen next year and I think musically speaking

I'm not sure how it was in the 90s or 80s or I mean before we participated but the musical

landscape did switch quite a bit in Luxembourg and I think we have many good groups and artists

who would be really representative to add something and contribute to the entire contest.

And I'm excited to see where we're going with that. Me too. Do you have any idea why Luxembourg was not participating between now and 92 or 93?

I have no idea and I couldn't tell you, I'm sorry. Yeah, I was wondering. I was actually surprised. I thought maybe, you know,

they didn't... I never watched the semi-finals or whatever there was before finals, so I

thought, okay, maybe they were participating, but they didn't go through to the finals.

Like some countries, they don't. And I was really surprised to learn that it was the

cautious decision not to participate. And I was just wondering myself, what could be

the reason, especially, you know, there's, like I mentioned, there are so many different

performance and artists here in Luxembourg, from hip hop to opera singers. So yeah, I

really look forward to it.

I do too. That was a really interesting topic switch between languages and Eurovision and we talked

about it. I really enjoyed it. Thank you. Before we continue, you mentioned about the

before just this Eurovision topic switch, you mentioned the bubble, that you were always

going outside of your own bubble and talking with people from outside of Luxembourg and

enjoying learning about their culture and their home countries.

Do you think that other Luxembourgers are doing the opposite, that they are staying in the bubble?

And do you think that the foreigners living in Luxembourg are also staying in their foreigners bubble?

I think this is very much tied to the personality of a person.

Now personally, I do have a friend and I am always amazed how he managed to have always

new acquaintances and friends that are very international.

He does music as well and studied abroad and somehow each time when I visit him there is

somebody new that he knows with such and I'm not even talking about now somebody from France

or Belgium but very exotic countries as well and I am always delighted to see that because

this reinforces my idea or my vision that this should be far more common.

On the other hand I do know others who are and I think this is not really necessarily a negative judgment.

I think everybody in their life gets to a point where they want to pursue their own

goals and not everybody is interested in cultural exchanges with others.

They just want to do their work, have a family and grow up and perhaps they are in sort of

a social circle that doesn't necessarily encourage the sort of more cultural exchange with other nationalities.

And I think it's also really dependent on where you grow up and where you live.

As I've mentioned earlier, I had the privilege to live in the capital for a few years and

it completely changed the way that my social interactions work.

And personally, I'm not a particular person who is always stuck with the same sort of,

established circle of friends.

I try always to have sort of different circles. And so I don't think that it would be fair to say, okay, every Luxembourgish, there are

just Luxembourgers who don't want to mess with anybody else.

They just want to stick with their own, just be Luxembourgish and don't want to...

To engage with it at all so just seeing it as black and white is probably too reductive of a

take to say. I think it's very much personally tied to who you are, how do you want to sort of

develop your social circles and some individual have perhaps more opportunities and some have

less so it's a difficult question to answer and I wouldn't really know a strict answer to that.

And as a person who speaks so many languages, have you thought considered or are you planning

to move outside of Luxembourg? Because also my question is connected with the fact that

you really like and you enjoy meeting people from from other countries and cultures. So,

have you have you considered moving outside of Luxembourg or you enjoy the Luxembourgish multicultural place?

As always I am not really good in planning ahead in the future, I am sort of just living

into the day more or less, but I don't think, I don't feel necessarily inclined to move

away from Luxembourg considering that I do work for the government as well which ties

me a bit to this country and for me personally it's important to identify with the place

that I live and spend most of my time with, so for me I don't think I will move out necessarily

to another country. And as it currently stands, I think that all the interactions that I have

or the acquaintances or friends that are, I would say foreigners or non Luxembourgish

native people, I do enjoy them a lot. So I always, I still feel that I have a sort of

multinational environment, instead of just being stuck in the same sort of town with

all the same people all my life. So I still feel there are enough options for me to kind

of explore these cultural differences with others and as you've mentioned very early

in the podcast here as well is that we can take a car or we can move really easily towards

other countries as well.

We have the luxury of being really central point of Europe so I think it's very easy

even to travel abroad and I think that really satisfies me for the moment to take Luxembourg

as sort of a hub for exploration and move to other countries visiting them, but moving

out. I don't see myself doing it now.

Chris, thank you very much, thank you very much for your time, for sitting down with

me and sharing your point of view of being a native, born and raised Luxembourger, living

in your country with so many foreigners who are either living here or coming and commuting

and stuck in the traffic jams on a daily basis in this small but really beautiful, and this

This is my personal opinion, a really beautiful country that I've been personally enjoying

for the past seven years and I have no plans so far of moving away.

Thank you so much! Thank you very much for letting me divulge my opinions here and also congratulations

on the 10 episodes! Thank you! Thank you so much!

On the occasion of this very special episode, I would like to take the opportunity to thank

all of the guests I had so far on the show and to you, dear listeners.

Without you, this podcast wouldn't be possible and you play a very important role in our Chronicles.

Besides Chris, in this episode number 10 we had the following guests Klara, Dierk, Hans, Mirej, João, Dan and Peter

and we have many more lined up for you.

Thank you for being a part of our adventure.

The music in this episode is thanks to Poddington Bear. In the show notes, you can find links to websites we talked about in this episode.

As always, thanks for listening and have a great day.